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Date: 07 Nov 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Subject: Re: In response to an attack
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Subject: Re: In response to an attack
>From: Denise Oliver-Velez deoliver@pipeline.com
>Date: 11/7/00 11:12 AM EST
>Message-id: <7a6g0t4g1b1laa8fpvitamebkuf6ghaao9@4ax.com>
>
>I'm not going to quote any of the debate in this thread in the
>interests of bandwidth, but I'd like to say to Cat - thanks for a calm
>response to Grisso.
I hope you are not suggesting that my own post was a provocation.
>To Grisso - you have posted many things in the past of interest to me,
>much that I agree with. I happen to believe that the Yorubas migrated
>from Egypt after the fall of Aknaten, and that their divination
>systems have no relationship to much later Arab/Islamic cultural
>diffusion.
I am not interested in "beliefs", and I do not insist upon litmus tests of
belief on this, that or other issue, otherwise woe, or war. I have not problem
with honest disagreement. No, what gets my goat is lying and deceit,
inconsistency and double standards. Frankly, I don't even mind debating a
racist on the basis of facts and arguments. But I do mind a racist, or one who
thinks like a racist, who would pass himself off as friend of Africa and ATR.
In the case at hand, the clincher for me was when he said that, faced with the
similarities between Arab "sand divination", and Ifa divination, it was
"obvious" to him that the latter had to have been derived from the former. Only
one who thinks that the African is a blank slate that everyone else may write
on except the African himself would leap to such a conclusion without
examination of the logical alternatives. I might excuse a racist who has been
programmed by the broader society, or an ignoramus likewise. But coming from an
initiated priest of ATR, something wrong. And as I said, that was only the
clincher. He pretends to be a friend, but clearly he is not. That is what
angers me, not that he holds a different view based on honest examination of
the facts. So, please, the issue for me is not whether you and I share the same
"beliefs" on X, Y, or Z issue. Friendship for me rests on something other than
shared beliefs and dogma. And if you know anything of the Zulu warrior code, or
that of the Japanese samurai, you should know that one can honor and respect
even one's enemy; it becomes difficult though for an enemy pretending to be a
friend.
>I also disagree with Eoghans position on this. I like Eoghan, and
>have learned much from his contributions to this group - as a scholar
>and practitioner. His input on Congo influences and palo belief
>systems have been very valuable. I have also watched Eoghan lose his
>temper at times here in this ng, and have no problem pointing this out
>to him and advising that he take a more moderate tone, or just ignore
>responding to flames.
My issues with Eoghan, as just pointed out, go beyond such issues.
>To follow up on what Cat has been stating - I don't think that skin
>color, or ethnicity should "color" (no pun intended) the debate or
>participation in this ng.
Deceit is not for me a matter of race, color or ethnicity.
>To Grisso - my belief is that "ori" has no color. A person may be of
>good character, or not, regardless of race, ethnicity or gender.
Quite so, and I certainly have not asserted the contrary.
>Those of us who revere our ancestors and deal with egun as part of our
>belief systems know that eguns are not always of the same race or
>religion or gender as we happen to be in this life cycle. Accepting
>this. and learning from it is an important part of our own spiritual
>growth and development.
Indeed.
>I am a descendant of African slaves. I am a descendant of slave
>owners.
>I am a descendant of Africans who sold off some of my ancestors.
>I am a descendant of a Coptic man who immigrated to the States from
>Egypt in the 1700's as a free man of color who was a blacksmith, and
>bought his wife (a slave) and later set her free after she proved to
>be fertile.
>I am a descendant of Scots-Irish settlers who lived in Appalachia.
>I am a descendant of Comanches from Oklahoma.
>I am a descendant of Lumbees from the Carolinas.
>I am a descendant of Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam.
>I am descendant of English settlers in Kansas - one great grandpa
>fought in the Civil War , on the side of the South.
>
>All of the above affect who I am - a black woman in America, with
>roots that grew in many different soils.
>
>I have "passed" some of these Eguns, as well as muertos who have no
>ancestral relationship to me. Are they all evolved? No. Is my
>task to help them evolve - yes. Are some of them here to help me -
>yes. Do some ask for forgiveness? Yes.
>
>I pass an egun who sings in Gaelic ( I don't speak Gaelic). I pass a
>woman who speaks French creole (I don't) I have a spiritual guide who
>is a Native American old man not from my own blood lineage.
>I have learned from each of them.
>
>My task is to continue to grow, learn and develop my character in this
>lifetime. to the best of my ability - drawing from the past and
>heading into the future.
All very good, and I do not disagree.
>I am not a member of a "gang" but am a proud past member of the Young
>Lords Party and Black Panther Party (grin) who were accused of being
>gangs back in the day.
For the record, talk about "gangs" on the group originated not with me, but
with Cat. When I looked around, the only "gang" that I could see was one with
herself as a member. You know, I've been in this country 21 years now. I come
from the Caribbean, where we have our own race problems, but I truly had no
idea what racism was until I came to this country. One of the ways in which
racism reveals itself is in the blind spot. The Turks have a saying: "the eye
sees all but itself". It is true of racists, and it is true especially of those
who are infected with the disease of racism, but believe deeply in their heart
and mind that they are free of it. The sign of infection is often that they
have a blind spot: the logical possibility that never occurs to them, or
objectionable behavior that they perceive in the other, but not among those of
their own. It was that bell that went off when Cat spoke about gangs. It went
off again when she could see my "snipes", but not those of her long-time
friends to which I was responding. Fair enough. If she wants to join the fight
as a partisan, I will take her on accordingly, time and interest permitting.
But no, she is jumping in as a peace-maker, oblivious to the blind spot that
rules her out. But she is clearly well-intentioned.
>My hope for this newsgroup at its inception was to carve out a tiny
>corner of cyberspace that would not be as restrictive as private
>e-mail groups. Some of those mailing list groups have a much narrower
>focus and membership, and while I participate in two currently, one of
>which requires proof of initiation in the Lucumi system, and one web
>based forum which requires proof of initiation in ATR, this ng
>fulfills a different function for me. It is truly open to a much
>broader base of input. And as such - does not require that
>participants be initiates. It is also open to readers who never post
>at all (and given the current climate in the room - I can't blame some
>of them for continuing to lurk rather than post). I am particularly
>interested in reaching young students.
>
>I have spent the better part of the last few years speaking and
>lecturing at forums on college campuses, where I have met many young
>people who have begun to show interest in their spiritual growth, who
>are not interested in following the path of Christianity, or Islam.
>I spend a lot of time e-mailing them reading lists, and lists of
>websites where they can get more information about ATRs. I have also
>referred some of them to this ng.
>
>Some of them have e-mailed me privately, to discuss their "fear of
>posting", since they don't feel they will be warmly welcomed here, or
>they are turned off by the endless bitching and sniping at each other
>that seems to dominate some threads. Others have been scared off by
>the flame wars and troll activity that has erupted here about once
>every 6 months or so. I have tried to calm their fears, and advised
>some to "just keep lurking" and keep the informative posts in a "save"
>file.
A discerning reader soon learns how to separate the wheat from the chaff. Learn
whichever button on their newsreader takes them to the next post. Also, learn
how to distinguish a battle royal from a flame war. From the former may emerge
diamonds in the rough, the product of intense heat and pressure; from the
latter, all you get is char and soot.
>I would like to end this long winded post with a plea - once again -
>for moderation in tone by posters - and please remember those folks
>who are out there reading these posts in perpetuity from Deja News
>archives.
The only plea I would make is for honesty and integrity. If you have something
to say, speak up. If you have nothing to say, keep quiet.
>Could we have more information and less acrimony?
>
>Thanks.
Blessed be the peace-makers. I end every post of mine with a benedictory
"peace" in close. Few are aware that the word "Amen" with which Christian
prayers are ended means the same thing. "Amen" is a Kamitic word that literally
means "hidden". In reference to God, it means the hidden aspect of God, hidden
not out there somewhere in the universe, but ultimately within our own hearts.
It is that hidden god to which we are all on a journey of return. It is that
place of inner peace, calm. It is what has been called nirvana (literally "no
motion") by the Hindus, shangri-la by the Tibetans, iwa pele by the Yoruba, and
various other things by various other peoples. But they all have to do with
peace, inner more so than outer. Having said all that, it must also be said
that the way to peace is often the warrior's way, paradoxical though it might
seem. We are here to love one another, no question about that. And God made us
to be members of families, of races, of ethnic groups, that we might "know one
another". By all means we must widen the circles of love to embrace ultimately
all of humanity, transcending the differences that would split us apart. To get
to that place of external peace however, we must first find inner peace. From
such a foundation, we reach out for justice (no justice, no peace). But to win
either justice or peace requires the attitude of a warrior. It won't happen
unless one is willing to fight for it, firm and fearless in the face of
whatever tricks Eshu may seek to deceive us with. Long story short: not all
struggle (acrimony?) is bad; and it is a false peace that rests on foundations
of deceit. As to "more information", consider this:
All your attention is focused on the penny-knowledge that comes
from books and teachers. You would do better to pay attention to
the bowl in which you hold it. -- One-Minute Wisdom
>Alafia/peace
>
>Denise
>
And to you too.
Peace,
Grisso
"the happy warrior, seeking peace but ready for war -- no justice, no peace!"
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