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Date: 08 Nov 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Subject: Re: In response to an attack
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Subject: Re: In response to an attack
>From: eballard@sas.upenn.edu (E. C. Ballard)
>Date: 11/7/00 6:36 PM EST
>Message-id:
>
>In article <20001107145905.11939.00000199@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
>
>> >To Grisso - you have posted many things in the past of interest to me=
,
>> >much that I agree with. I happen to believe that the Yorubas migrate=
d
>> >from Egypt after the fall of Aknaten, and that their divination
>> >systems have no relationship to much later Arab/Islamic cultural
>> >diffusion.
>
>
>
>> I am not interested in "beliefs", and I do not insist upon litmus test=
s of
>> belief on this, that or other issue, otherwise woe, or war. I have not=
>problem
>> with honest disagreement. No, what gets my goat is lying and deceit,
>> inconsistency and double standards. Frankly, I don't even mind debatin=
g a
>> racist on the basis of facts and arguments. But I do mind a racist, or=
one
>who
>> thinks like a racist, who would pass himself off as friend of Africa a=
nd
>ATR.
>> In the case at hand, the clincher for me was when he said that, faced =
with
>the
>> similarities between Arab "sand divination", and Ifa divination, it wa=
s
>> "obvious" to him that the latter had to have been derived from the
>former. >Only one who thinks that the African is a blank slate that
>everyone else may >write on except the African himself would leap to suc=
h
>a conclusion without
>> examination of the logical alternatives. =
>
>
>
>Denise said:
>
>> >systems have been very valuable. I have also watched Eoghan lose his=
>> >temper at times here in this ng, and have no problem pointing this ou=
t
>> >to him and advising that he take a more moderate tone, or just ignore=
>> >responding to flames.
>> =
>
>Grisso again:
>
>> My issues with Eoghan, as just pointed out, go beyond such issues.
>> =
>> >To follow up on what Cat has been stating - I don't think that skin
>> >color, or ethnicity should "color" (no pun intended) the debate or
>> >participation in this ng.
>> =
>> Deceit is not for me a matter of race, color or ethnicity.
>> =
>
>> For the record, talk about "gangs" on the group originated not with me=
, but
>> with Cat. When I looked around, the only "gang" that I could see was o=
ne
>with
>> herself as a member. You know, I've been in this country 21 years now.=
I
>come
>> from the Caribbean, where we have our own race problems, but I truly h=
ad no
>> idea what racism was until I came to this country. One of the ways in =
which
>> racism reveals itself is in the blind spot. The Turks have a saying: "=
the
>eye
>> sees all but itself". It is true of racists, and it is true especially=
>of those
>> who are infected with the disease of racism, but believe deeply in the=
ir
>heart
>> and mind that they are free of it. The sign of infection is often that=
they
>> have a blind spot: the logical possibility that never occurs to them, =
or
>> objectionable behavior that they perceive in the other, but not among =
those
>of
>> their own. =
>
>Boy Grisso =
"Grisso" would be quite sufficient, thank you.
- look in the mirror. This describes exactly what you have been
>doing in your dealings with me. You have several blind spots and I will
>discuss them right now. =
I'm all ears =E2?=A6
>First - my only error was to disagree with you. I don't care that you
>disagree with me. That's fine. I am not so insecure as to need constant
>reinforcement. Nor am I so cowardly as to choose to accuse someone who h=
as
>challanged my opinions with the epithet "racist".
??? If there is a serious point there struggling to emerge, I'm afraid I =
don't
see it. I do recognize the snipe (look Cat, there it is=E2?=A6) however, =
and I'll
restrain myself and not respond to it.
>Let me point out how I see the issue. First of all, I disagree with both=
>you and Denise on the Egyptian origins of Yoruban culture. In point of
>fact, THAT viewpoint was first offered by a European elite who just coul=
d
>not buy the idea that Subsaharan Africans were capable of a sophisticate=
d
>culture. This is preceisely what you turn around and try to accuse me of=
>here in suggesting that the mechanics I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THE MECHANICS -=
>not necessarily the meat of the system came from Arab sources. =
First of all, J. Olumide Lucas can hardly be described as European elite.=
Second of all, even if the idea were put forward by some Aryan supremacis=
t, one
would still examine the facts and the logic of the assertion. In fact, I =
love
it when people such as Bowen write their books and articles =E2?=A6 in th=
e very
attempt at separating the African from African accomplishment, they serve=
up
the material with which to correct the errors that flow from racial and r=
acist
prejudice. The error that you made was to jump, illogically, to a conclus=
ion
that could only be sustained if precisely you had it in your mind that th=
e
African was tabula rasa, upon which someone else had to be writing. Wheth=
er
mechanics or meat, the logical set-up of the situation is the same, and t=
he
evidence you adduce could as easily support either the opposite conclusio=
n
(Arab got it from African) or a third (both got it from a common source).=
That
it must be pointed out to you that there are other logical possibilities =
makes
my point of the blind spot that racists, and those who are infected with =
racist
thinking, have where Africa and Africans are concerned.
I also
>pointed out, as I have many times before that I view the ability to
>appropriate cultural material from other cultures and then recreating th=
em
>in an African mold is an extremely creative and power expression of
>cultural sophistication. =
One cannot conclude anything, in particular cases, from this very general=
statement. It is a statement that would remain true whether African trans=
mitted
to Arab, Arab transmitted to African, or both share the same parent from =
which
transmission took place. It is this sort of illogic on your part that aga=
in
adds to the conclusion that I draw, namely you have a blind spot where Af=
rican
and Africans are concerned, and the normal rules of everyday logic seem t=
o fly
right out the window.
To suggest that a viewpoint in disagreement with
>you MUST be dependant upon the notion of Africa being a tabula rasa is
>obsurb. =
That was not my suggestion. See above. =
>The fact is Grisso, whether you like it or not, no culture ever exists i=
n
>a vacuum and all cultures borrow from those others with whom they make
>contact.
Quite so. But you cannot conclude from that that the African got "it", wh=
atever
"it" may be in particular context, from somewhere else. The whole logical=
point
is that it depends on the facts and the evidence, in particular the relev=
ant
timelines.
>In the course of the exchange between European and African peoples, both=
>cultures borrowed from the other. In as much as cultures develop and
>change, both were enriched in various ways in the process. =
So? Maybe it's not a logical blind spot. Maybe you have no idea what logi=
c is.
The latter, by the way, is an African invention also, although that too h=
as
been appropriated by European culture vultures.
I am not saying
>here that the abuse and horror of slavery or the attempts to repress
>African cultures can be forgiven or that anything they received which ma=
de
>them richer means that their cultures could only be improved by outsider=
s
>nor that they were not already rich expressive cultures. In many ways,
>European culture was made far richer through the influence of African
>culture. Modern plastic arts, music and dance worldwide are especially
>indebted to African sources.
Yarite. Now he further damns himself with another trick of the racist: th=
e
giving of faint praise. =
>As for never having seen racism in the caribbean as you have seen it her=
e
>Grisso may in some ways be true. But as for the personal you are far mor=
e
>the racist than I. =
Uhhuh=E2?=A6
As un p-c as that may be, it is true. Since you have
>made gross and unsopportable accusations about me here, I will point out=
>for the record that in my extended family there are far more people of
>African descent than of European, even if it happens to be by marriage. =
Means nothing. Just because you may be married to someone with some Afric=
an
heritage, it doesn't magically cure you of the disease. If anything, it m=
ight
make it harder to cure, for it can strengthen you in your denial.
I
>have attempted to debate with you for the most part civilly and received=
>snipes for it. Then when I attempted to reach out and express some
>friendliness such as wishing you well on your trip to India and asking y=
ou
>to share with us on your return, I get accused of insincerity and
>dishonesty. =
Actually, on that occasion you were rude and presumptuous. =
You have consistantly manipulated and tried to put words in my
>mouth and attribute to me ideas that were not expressed by me. =
I deny it. Show where I have done so. =
You are
>smooth, and dishonest and insincere yourself.
I deny that assertion as to me, and you have certainly made no such showi=
ng,
but I notice that it contains an admission as to you, Freudian or otherwi=
se.
> For the record Denise, if I lose my temper sometimes, it is never witho=
ut
>provocation. =
>
>Good day.
That's it? Where are the blind spots you promised? What kind of academici=
an is
it that cannot even sustain a train of thought, let alone argument? =
>Eoghan
Peace,
Grisso
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