Subject: Re: African values (Was: On interracial relationships, or anything)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:07:11 GMT

Alina Holgate (holgate@deakin.edu.au) wrote:
: >
: > Alina Holgate (holgate@deakin.edu.au) wrote:
: > : What my Sesotho husband has to say of the concept of "traditional African
: > : values".

: > Well, let's get specific.  Here are excerpts from the traditional African
: > Constitution as summarized by Chancellor Williams, "The Destruction
: > of Black Civilization", pp 170-175:

: big snips


: He can think of major exceptions to this Constitution which pre-existed
: white invasion - the already discussed differences between Zulu and Sesotho
: forms of government being a most obvious example.  He also claims that
: Article XI (the right to a fair trial, due process, right of appeal) is
: actually quite alien to African culture, he claims that African laws
                                                                  ^^^^
: permit the too easy killing of people on the basis of mere suspicion or
: the unsupported testimony of someone with a grudge and that the notion of
: appeal to a higher court is laughable.  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What does respondent have to say about the Sesotho on these matters?
I am already discounting what respondent says about non-Sesotho,
since he has already impeached himself, admitting as he has being
"uncomfortable" (I think that was the characterization) propounding
on Zulu culture, and admitting also, as he has, to some anti-Zulu
bias.

: A more traditional African notion is
: that the whole village should participate in the killing of someone so that
: no one individual bears the burden of the guilt of murder - this means that
                                                     ^^^^^^
If the sentence is meted out pursuant to "law" (see earlier) then
the manner of execution is moot.  One guy pulling a switch on the
electric chair, or to let down a hangman's trapdoor, is not per
se better or different than a community stoning or what-have-you.

: you see mobs of people stone or burn someone to death on suspicion of being
: a witch or an informer, with total impunity. 

Ask him whether this is the Sesotho way.

: He concedes that disputes over
: land may be adjudicated and appealed but that when it comes to offences
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I see.

: against people or the village there is no such thing as a fair trial.  He

Is he perhaps confusing swift justice with lack of justice.
Has this happened to him.  Who ran him out of Lesotho?

: figures that if any European values have had a positive effect on traditional
: African practises it is the concept that people must be "proven" guilty
: before you're allowed to kill them.

I don't think it is the concept of "proof" that is at issue so
much as the standard of proof.  I have heard Africans tell jokes
about what goes on in European courts in the name of impeaching
witnesses.  "You saw him steal that goat, did you?".  "Yes".
"Did he lead it away with his right hand or his left hand?"
"I don't remember."  "Then he couldn't possibly be guilty,
could he?"  You get the idea.  

: Overall he thinks that the notion of an African Constitution that has been
: ruined by white influence seriously overestimates the influence that whites
: can have or have had over traditional African practises.  He reiterates that
: whites are not powerful enough to have completely altered in a couple of
: hundred years centuries worth of values and that if such an African Constitution
: existed we would see much more evidence of it today and that if, in fact, such
: an African Constitution had existed whites would have been completely unable to
: dominate against such unity and greatness.  He wants to know why, if this Utopia
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Misconception.  Williams argues quite cogently how the very 
Constitution led to the proliferation of micro-states (tribal
groupings) in Africa.  This flowed from the right to rebellion
and withdrawal (Cf. American civil war and the denial of the
right to secede).  Therefore, the very humaneness of the 
African Order would have rendered Africa vulnerable to 
outside incursion, and to the divide-and-conquer games of
the whites.

: existed, whites managed to screw it up so completely in so short a time.  He
: reckons that the idea that everything that's bad about Africa is completely the
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: fault of white people is a too-convenient cop out.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He proceeds from a false premise.  Really, he should read Williams'
book.  I cannot do it justice in one or two, even lengthy posts.
Then, if he wants to comment, I really would like to hear him
first-hand, if that is at all possible.  Can he work a keyboard?

(( big cuts ))

I do not have the time to respond to all that you say.  I would
say only that the gist of his and your comments proceed from
a misunderstanding of what Williams has put forth, and also
of what I have been arguing.  I have pointed out instances of
such misunderstanding above.

In Maat,

	 

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