Subject: Re: African values (Was: On interracial relationships, or anything)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:54:52 GMT
Alina Holgate (holgate@deakin.edu.au) wrote:
: > "Slavery" in Africa was of the
: > same sort, with redemptive possibility. Definitely it could
: > better be described as "domestic servitude" or "indentured
: > servitude" rather than the abomination of the chattel slavery
: > of the West.
: Whichever way you cut it it still looks like oppression to me and of a form
: that is indistinguishable from traditional European feudal practises.
... or modern-day wage-slavery.
: > PS. Btw, re "necklacing", I hardly think that that is
: > representative Sesotho justice, let alone African
: > justice. I grant that your respondent may be Sesotho
: > by birth. But clearly he was raised in South Africa,
: > moreover under apartheid. Africans were not in charge,
: > Afrikaners were. Therefore, whatever African "mobs"
: > did to "informers" were done in the absence of any
: > guiding indigenous judicial procedures. Necklacing
: > was an improvisation under conditions similar to,
: > --if you need a European example for you to understand
: > the point--those that existed during the French
: > revolution. I'm pretty sure that the French mobs
: > were equally, and I expect even more, savage, "lawless"
: > etc. than the Black mobs of Soweto and elsewhere
: > in apartheid S. Africa. When I talk
: > of "African constitution" and African "asili", I am
: > certainly not referring to the conditions that existed
: > under apartheid.
: I think one fundamental difference in point of view between yourself and
: our Sesotho respondent is that he feels that Africans have pretty much
: maintained their traditional practises, values, culture, etc. whereas
: you seem to think that African traditions were irrevocably corrupted
: the moment whites set foot on the continent and that any African practise
: since white invasion is not therefore really truly "African".
It's simpler than that, also not as stark as you put it.
I mention the example of the French revolution, because
mob justice, moreover during a revolution, is quite different
from peacetime justice, no matter where you are. Likewise,
military justice on the battlefield is quite different
from civilian justice, also from military justice during
peacetime. Deserters are summarily shot during war.
Cowards also. No due process. Revolutionary mobs, likewise,
administer justice in a summary fashion. Therefore, I
question whether practices carried out under and during
the revolutionary war against apartheid in South Africa
could be taken as indicative of what was normal constitutional
African judicial practice. I also question whether, under
a European-imposed judicial system, traditional African
justice could be said to be followed. For a court to
command respect, it must be properly constituted. If the
precepts and procedures of a "native" court are in conflict
with the imposed colonial order, the "native" court is
made to give way. Any "local", "village" attempts at
administering justice is therefore unalterably affected,
yes corrupted, by the broader imposition of the colonial
master. I could well understand why the execution of
a death sentence ordered by a "native" proceeding *has*
to be carried out by all, for under the colonial imposition,
any single executioner could be charged with murder for
carrying out the sentence of a court that is not recognized
by the occupying, colonial power. With his mole's-eye
view, your Sesotho respondent may be unable to see these
things. The study of history has a way of providing the
perspective which Sesotho respondent apparently lacks.
: to fit very well with notions of collective responsiblity and democratic
: participation in the righting of wrongs done to the community - if a child is
: abused or a woman is murdered or the safety of the community is compromised by
: an informer it is the community's business, not the business solely of the
: individuals involved; if execution is to be done it is the responsibility of
: the whole community to take part in this so that all see that justice is done.
: One could go so far as to argue that it is only from the vantage point of a
: European asili that one would fail to realise the benefits of villagers
: collectively and swiftly administering the penalty of death. Why, then, do
: you not take the attitude "yeah, that's how it's done in Africa - get
: over it" instead of repeatedly claiming that any African practise which is
: abhorrent to Europeans is either: a) untrue or b) an example of contamination
: or c) completely misunderstood or d) all of the above.
Look, this is not a bargaining game. I'm not interested
in splitting the difference. There is no integrity in that,
and truth would emerge thereby only by accident, if at all.
Don't cite examples which are easily confuted by the
circumstances surrounding the examples themselves.
: > On another point, Washington DC had a visit yesterday
: > from the *Queen-mother* (Semane Molotlegi) of the
: > Royal Bafokeng Nation, which constitutes a province
: > of South Africa. These roles do exist in southern
: > Africa it would appear, contrary to what your
: > Sesotho respondent seemed to be asserting.
: Yet further evidence to indicate that traditional African practises are alive
: and well despite European influence.
That there is significant African retention all over the
continent was never at issue. That there has been "contamination"
also was never at issue. What was in issue was whether
the Queen-mothership, as a traditonal constitutional role, was as
ubiquitous as I had been previously led to believe, specifically
in the context of the role of women in African society, and
whether they are subject to some form of sexist oppression,
as women traditionaly have been in the West, and in Arabia,
for example. On the specific question, your Sesotho respondent
sought to have us believe that there was no Zulu queen-mother,
and no Sesotho queen-mother. The pointed question as to
what does the praise-title "the Great She-Elephant" refer, there
was no answer. Well, here we had in Washington, a *queen-mother*
from the Royal Bafokeng nation of South Africa. Therefore the
tradition continues to exist at least among some of the
southern African traditional cultures. I did not ask her,
but I also suspect that the Bafokeng are part of the
larger Zulu nation. What does respondent have to say about
the latter.
: > On yet another point, your story about Shaka Zulu I
: > refuse to believe.
: I can't vouch for the historial veracity of these sorts of stories but it's
: worth bearing in mind that Sesotho folklore basically holds that Shaka was
: a psychopathic despot who terrorised his own people. These are stories they
: tell each other, they may or may not be true, but they didn't come to this
: belief simply because it was rammed down their throats by Europeans.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't recall saying that they were.
I fully appreciate that to some, an Alexander
the Great, to cite one example, is but an
Alexander the Brute. Alexander committed
brutalities, including murder, that
I doubt Shaka could match. Proving that
stories of greatness and villainy, both, have
to be subjected to a test of reason. For
the reasons I have stated, I do not believe
that Shaka killed people just to demonstrate
that he was a "god". I do, however, believe
that he was a despot. He may also have been
"psychopathic" but I have heard no account of
his exploits and accomplishments that would
lead me to believe the latter, unless you
would also include in that description such
other warrior-kings as the aforementioned
Alexander the Greek, Napoleon Bonaparte, and
others whom history has treated more kindly.
If you're looking to trade "concessions", I'm
not interested.
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