Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:05:11 -0400
To: Athena Discuss 
Subject: Re: Prior belief

Vdismas@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Re your post deciding how I arrived at my beliefs regarding the racial makeup
> of the ancient Egyptians:  "This sounds to me like a strong statement of
> prior belief, probably arrived at using considerations that have nothing to
> do with what is known about the ancient Egyptians themselves."
> 
> The source of my beliefs are 1) Frank Yurco, "Was Cleopatra Black?,"
> _Biblical Archaeology_, _Before There Was Color Prejudice_, Frank Snowden,
> "Clines and Clusters versus 'Race,'" C. Loring Brace, reproductions of
> Egyptian art in various texts.

Thank you for citing your sources.  It does not remove the 
sneer that came through in your reference to "tropical
sub-Saharan Africans--Bantu or Masai or Twa".  However, I
happily leave that aside if no such sneer was intended.

The question though remains.  References to "ancient Egypt"
cover a span of time measured in the thousands of years.
Clearly the Egyptians, already in the time of Cleopatra,
were a people with much genetic admixture--Volney called 
them "mulattoes".  On my own trip to Egypt, I remember
remarking that the racial mixture reminded me very much of
what I have seen in the Caribbean: there is a spectrum of
skin shades from dark black to tanned whites, much the
same as in the Caribbean, and among African-Americans,
in the U.S.  If therefore a distinction is
sought to be drawn between such a racially mixed people, 
and Africans sub-Sahara who have not similarly been mixed,
then it is clear that such a distinction may readily be
granted.  

The more important issue, though, exactly because
of the clear mixing that has gone on, is to trace the 
*origins* of the Egyptian civilization.  Did the "original"
Egyptians come from the south (sub-Sahara), down the Nile
Valley toward the delta, or did they come from outside 
the African continent, through the delta, and up the Nile.
If this is taken as the key question, one looks, not to
the Egypt of Cleopatra's time, but to the Egypt of the
first pharaoh, Narmer.  He looks pretty sub-Sahara to
me. (See Diop (1977), _The African Origin of Civilization_,
Pl. 5.)  So too Lord Tera Neter, a figure from Egyptian
proto-history (ibid., Pl 4), Pharaoh Zoser of the IIIrd
Dynasty (ibid. Pl. 6) among many others.  Yes, there are
ancient Egyptians, including pharaohs, who look merely
"negro"--as that term was used in America and the Caribbean
where it first came into use, which includes those even
with significant white admixture--as distinct from 
"sub-Saharan African", which, as used by you, seems to want
to connote a "pure" black type.  If that is what you seek,
look no further than the first pharaoh.  As already
stated, he seems pretty "sub-Saharan" to me.

In addition simply to looking at these likenesses which
come down to us in carvings and paintings, Diop marshalls
an impressive array of linguistic, religious, and
socio-cultural arguments that show the 
essential "African-ness" of ancient Egyptian culture.

Do your sources say otherwise?  If not, then the definition
that you seek to assert ("people of color" = "sub-Sahara black
African") in order to conclude that the "ancient Egyptians"
were *not* people of color, is just semantic game-playing.

> Re Colin Powell and Di:  I was unaware of their relationship but am happy for
> them both if it gives pleasure to either or both of them.

You skillfully evade my point, but that's alright.  I
think you got it anyway.

Regards,

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