Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 23:39:59 -0400
To: Athena Discuss 
Subject: Re: Prior beliefs and sneers

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Vdismas@aol.com wrote:
> 
>      You can indeed "happily leave that [my presumed sneer] aside [since] no
> such sneer was intended."  I picked those three groups out of the hat and
> intended them merely as samples of different tropical indigenes.  

I'm glad to hear no sneer was intended, and again to leave that aside.

> The
> distinction between the racially mixed Egyptians and the non-mxed (relatively
> so) tropicals is one that I also agree with (Is there ANYONE who would not?).

Yes, but the point of your original post seemed to be that the Egyptians
were not pure sub-Saharan African, therefore they were not "people of
color".  Such a conclusion requires an abuse of language, unless, like
Humpty Dumpty, you believe that words can mean exactly what *you* want
them to mean, irrespective of common usage.  Like the modern Egyptians, the
ancient Egyptians were non-white, whatever else they were.  More to
the point, the very *earliest* of the ancient Egyptians were not only
non-white, they were black, indistinguishable from sub-Saharan African. 

>      Re your question about the source of the origins of Egyptian culture, I
> think that the post "Yurco on Egyptians" gives a good answer.  Egypt derived
> from Saharan cultures pushed into the Nile valley by climactic changes.
>  Ultimately, of course, these Saharans were from--based on Leakey--Kenya, a
> definitely sub-Saharan area.  I don't think that west African populations
> added much to the origins of Egypt.

Diop hypothesizes, with much documentary evidence to support the
hypothesis, that remnants of the ancient Egyptian civilization migrated
west-ward, also southward, pushed there by the successive foreign 
conquests of Egypt after it went into decline.  They took aspects of
religion, language, and socio-cultural expression with them. 

>      Therefore, it looks like our disagreement boils down to west or east
> African sources, and I am REALLY out of my depth here since I have done zero
> reading on these cultures and am forced to rely on the expertise of Yurco et
> al.

The East vs. West issue is raised now for the first time.  But see
reference to Diop above.

>      You stated that "strongly held prior beliefs are apt to make fools of
> those holding them, especially where the beliefs are about people, and what
> they are presumed, on surface consideration, not to be capable of."  I'm not
> sure where you got the feeling that I had a prior belief that, based on
> surface consideration (I assume you mean skin color)," any particular people
> were incapable of any particular achievement.  Once again, is there
> ANYONE--besides the invincibly ignorant--who believe that?

I read a sneer where you say none was intended.  Fine, let's leave it
at that.  At the same time, please don't say to a black person that
there are not many "invincibly ignorant"--to use your fine phrase--
white folk who think exactly that, not least Charles Murray and his
"Bell Curve".

>      Re Di and Powell, I wasn't evading the point so much as missing it!  On
> a close reading of your post, I think that you are saying that as a
> descendent of Tamhou, Di should be honored to be Powell's relative instead of
> his being honored to be related to her. 

Yes, you *did* get the point, or at least half of it.  The reference
was not so much to Di per se--who might well feel honored to be related
to Colin Powell, more so than he to her, I have no way of knowing--but to 
the presumption of the *media* that was implicit in their reporting,
and the irony of it, if one took a long enough historical view. 

> However, since I neither belong nor
> wish to belong to any pedigreed (sounds like the American Kennel
> Association!) organization à la the DAR, Burke's Peerage, or the Social
> Register, the idea that one is to be praised for the mere act of being born
> into a certain lineage doesn't really mean much to me.

Maybe so, but you must admit there is a certain irony in the 
ascent from Tamhou to white skin privilege; moreover that there
is a moral lesson to be gained from the observation, whether
you in particular are in need of it or not.

Regards,

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